MetaFic

Okay, I've a question...

Harry is 18? Why is he going to Hogwarts? Did he take a sabbatical to rid the world of a Dark Wizard? Hmm... that's three questions. Well, the first one is rhetorical (not you Ken!) so it doesn't count.

Harry is 18....

The previous year Hogwarts was closed as the war reached its height. Thus returning this year are all the normal 1st to 7th years plus the previous years displaced 7th year.

Harry has not attended Hogwarts. As befits cliche!Harry, he has been educated away from the public eye to prepare him for his mission. Snakeface is now pushing up the daisies and the adults around Harry have decided that he needs to learn how to react around his peers. Or, as I put it to Dave:

This is the Weapon!Harry cliché. Don’t put him with the Dursely’s or with other kids, train him up to kill voldie and then wonder what to do with the mess later. Oh yes, send him to school for a year and that’ll help him adjust and let’s hope he doesn’t kill anyone whilst he’s there.

Oh! I know about Weapon!Harry type stories, Chatman says proudly! :-)

I think you do :-)

Sorry about my lack of reading the summery first, before sending my review. I realized a few minutes after I sent it out, that is when I read the summery. Realizing then that you were going to think I was a nut-case. Hope it was atleast good for a laugh.

I really did enjoy chapter 1, and look forward to reading the rest when it's ready.

Don't worry about it; put it down to youthful enthusiasm. :-)

Youthful enthusiasm! I am laughing hysterically here. My kids tell me I'm ancient. I'm a 41 year old, who reads too much. You say I show youthful enthusiasm. Thanks for the compliment!

*smiles* of course, it might just be that I'm a few years your senior.

Whatever the reason, I'm happy to read that you're suffering from upward mouth curvatures. I admit, this story caught my curiosity, which is curiously funny in spelling, almost weird in spelling, and not fun like conundrum. For when you are prepared to continue, there shall be an audience. Although if English keeps going the way it is, we may all be writing in Esperanto.

So my spelling is officially weird then? :p

I love delving into more arcane language. I have a version or 2 of Webster's 1828 Dictionary available to me and have recently purchased a version of an 1811 'Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue'. It tells mean that Harry meant A country fellow, Molly or Miss Molly was , and I quote, 'an effeminate fellow, a sodomite' and Catchpole as in Otery St... was a bum bailiff or sheriff's officer.

Hi

This is a review I received at PS. It raises some interesting points but I feel that the reviewer is missing some things. I share it not to belittle them but to open up the debate:

I must admit that while I am fascinated by your story, I am to some extent disgusted. I have been forced to grow accustomed to some measure of sexism within fanfiction, however here it is displayed unusually blatantly.

I hope I will not be so disgusted again.

Well this is just not for "romance". Certainly, it is part of the plot, but not the purpose for the characters acting this way. To obtain a good marriage (as in a good catch) is part of that (and any) society. It's part of staying in the good families. Ginny is expected to have a career and opportunity, be it a Quiddich star or what ever she chooses. Her other purpose is a union with Harry to perpetuate an offspring to continue their status. In that sense they both belong to each other.

Just for the record, both my parents were part of an arranged marriage. Most marriages the world over are arranged. Marrying for love is a minority concept and mostly in the west. It makes good "romance" but to continue their mutual heritage and place in their society, no sense at all.

Sexism exists whether it's arranged or not. Harry was making in no uncertain terms toward Ginny, a statement for their future together. That goes with speaking to her family. What affects Ginny, directly affects them. And as for marrying for love, I might fall in love with a homeless drunk, but I wouldn't marry him. My kids deserve better then that.

I believe your reviewer would make a terrible anthropologist. Her biggest mistake is viewing another culture through the lens of her own. As already mentioned, societies the world over rely heavily on arranged marriages, and many treat their women far worse than what you've shown for Wizarding Britain. I've been to Iraq and Afghanistan, so when I hear people talk like this I bust out laughing.

I'm always rather wary of people who pepper their speech with buzzwords like "irresponsible/archaic men" while waving the flag of political correctness. Their reasoning always seems more like rhetoric.

To be brief; she looking down her nose at cultures that aren't as "sophisticated" as her own, with all the self-righteousness that point-of-view implies.

Personally, I think your story could be an interesting look into a culture very like our own, but different in fundamental ways. I didn't say better, and I didn't say worse, just different. And I like that.

I've seen the view expressed that a marriage is too important a thing to be left to mere emotions. Given the high divorce rate in the west one would have to agree. BTW we celebrate our 25th this year :)

I think the biggest issue is the lack of recognition that she is indeed viewing a different culture. I think your last point sums it up very well.

Congratulations! My wife and I celebrated our 18th. I tell people I am very fortunate to have married better than she did. ;-)

Your unfavorable reviewer seems to think you condone the betrothal contract idea. The difference in cultures is a very important point. Many Americans do not suspect how different American culture [sic] is from that of even Britain. Now throw in a group of people who withdrew from British cultural interaction during the post-Restoration period. Hmm... Age of Reason? Nope. The Rights of Man? Nope. Industrial Revolution? Nope. Rise of science and technology? Nope. Yeah, yeah... I'm becoming pedantic but I'm trying to make a point.

Unfortunately you can't please all of the people all of the time. You have written enough stories and posted on enough various sites and boards that I'm surprised this is your first bad review. I have already expected to get some for The Lost Tower series and have a pre-planned response ready: Ah well, I guess I’m not your cup of tea. However, thank you for taking the time to read and review my work.

Sigh. So much for my canned response that I was working on. Next time you find your brain, try using it instead of spitting on it.

As for this reviewer, the primary issues have been covered in the discussion here and in the other thread about promiscuity. I'd reiterate that no matter what quality of writing you do, there's always a person out there with an opinion against it. And since we all know what value opinions of random warm bodies have, given that everyone has at least 1.7 of them . . .

Carry on, I say, and ignore people that are too self-focused to appreciate anything not in their rote box.

Many congrats to you as well. I think I did better out of the deal as well.

That is an interesting point; not the effects of the withdrawal, but when it happened.

I tend to be less sympathetic these days. I appreciate people people taking the time to review but it comes back to have they read the story carefully.

I tend to be blandly polite to unknowns on-line. Trolls and flame wars no longer excite me.

I think the subject reviewer would consider the end of your comment to be rudely sexist. Thank goodness you didn't write "pencil" or "uvula," you might get banned in Boston for that sort of pornography. ;-)

Whereas I feel like life is short, and I'd rather call a spade a spade. Flowery language buys nothing but further disillusionment. :)

Good thing I didn't say route box then, eh?

I don't even know what is so sexist about it. Debate about the era/society/culture aside - I didn't think it was sexist.

I must be archaic ...

Really enjoying your story. I do have one question: You told us what would happen if Harry forfeits the contract, but didn't mention the consequences if Ginny refuses to go through with it.
Your writing is WONDERFUL! I hope all is well with you!

You think I'd tell you that?

Sorry, lots of secrets which will be revealed as we go.

Of course you will! All we have to do is read your story. :- )

being honest, you won't find out everything :P

And not finding everything out is the best way, something JKR should have known from her studies of the classics at Exeter

leave people wanting more and force them to use their imagination - that is what makes Eighth Day one of the top 5 fan fiction stories

I don't need you to tell me EVERYTHING, merely enough that I feel comfortable interpolating between the plot points. :-)

... Chatmandu wants to be able to write SOTF fanfic afterwards. ;-) *GDR*

-SC

I firmly believe that a signifier of a rich vein of ideas is the potential for writing AU stories from it.

Can anyone guess which series of stories I'm going to cite as a prime example?

Isn't disillusionment the wrong word and is actually contradicting the meaning of the first sentence? If one calls a spade a spade it may have a disillusioning effect. (I suppose that was the intended assertion and probably everybody understood what you meant ;) ). But since flowery language is the opposite of calling things by their true names/meanings it would lead to further illusions and not disillusionment.
Okay that didn't exactly contribute to the discussion but I just needed to get that off my mind. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now concerning the topic - I really don't think the scene is sexist. After all it's an AU Harry Potter FF story, whose society can by hardly any means be compared to what we are used to in western societies.

I hope you keep up the writing parakletos and put all that PS trouble aside. I think you have a solid - not so much sheep-alike - reader base here at metafic.

The vague notion the original statement should have implied is that the more flowery language people use, the harder people like me have to work to disabuse them of their illusions. It's a hard job, but someone has to pop bubbles, and there are all these sharp pointy sticks laying about . . .

Stepping back, I'd have to agree that I phrased that poorly. If you look at it just right, while squinting into the sunlight, you might see the idea buried in there, though. That counts for something, doesn't it?

To keep on topic, though, when do we get the next installment of sexist, domineering, demeaning marriage-law fic?

I'm curious as to what other stories these people have commented on at PS. Say Moshpit's clearly AU, if most excellent, Echoes of Power, or Viridian's Harry Potter and the Nightmares of Futures Past (an AU of an AU), or even Sovran's MoOverse collections?

While I'd like to say thanks for the kind words, the reaction Sins has garnered is about on par with Echoes. I get reviews of complete hate, complete adoration, and the entire spectrum in between.

I get this level of reaction at PS, SIYE, and FF. I tried briefly to post on a few other sites, particularly when I was having a string of issues with SIYE, but that was incredibly frustrating. Honestly, some of the reviews I get for any works of mine just make me want to weep at the sheer lack of brainpower involved.

The ones that "surprise" me are when I get reviews from other authors, particularly when they spout a bunch of weirdness. All I can really say is that stories that deviate much from canon seem to get very polar reactions.

Well maybe it has to do with my involvement in alternate history that I'm more inclined to accept AU's than others. Of course I only include well written ones (Just like I like my AH I like some thought put into the AU I like to read -- a side note if you guys think you get burned try writing a plausible alternate history TL or story that gets vetted by degreed historians, not a pleasant sight at times I'll tell you!).

One would think that as long as you are adhering to the tenants of the site (canon ships, etc.) --I'm not including the always fun but cesspool like FF.net-- you'd be safe to ignore the wackos. Granted a slew of negative reviews by people who don't understand can be really disappointing...much like no reviews either.

P.S. Echoes rocks and I can't wait to read the next chapter.

I think its fair to say that people either get Au or they don't.

The next chapter is in early draft stages. These days I'm writing a lot in my head before I finally put quill to parchment.

Since the wrap up of the canon books, the projecting canon ahead aspect of fanfic is sort of moot. So I became interested in AU. I love reading a thought exercise expanded from a different premise. "Sins" definitely does that.

As far as readers not getting AU, I'm still bemused(?) over the upset reviews from Ginny being the Seeker in Dino's "Meddle." Such an out of the box story and THAT"S what they are picking up on? *Snort*Chortle*Snerk*

I'm working on the next but one chapter ( the next one is, as far as I can tell, in the final stages of the beta process) where, amongst other things, Harry is interacting with his house. One approach is to have him learn and understand the nuances of Slytherin politics the other is to let lose a shootfirstaskquestionslater!Harry.

I have gone for the later as my Harry is on a tight schedule. I also view him as someone who has never been taught how to be subtle, only how to defeat the foe in front of him. He has pretensions to subtly but beyond the sphere of combat he is a novice. This has led him into some dark corners doing some quite revolting things to those who have crossed him. He has also discovered a seedy underbelly where morality is relative and gain, whether social, political or sexual is all that matters.

I blame this, rightly or wrongly, on Malus Darkblade (Warhammer) and his blood thirsty cannibalistic ways. :p

So as I said, it's getting a bit dark and I'm wondering whether this fits with what you know so far of Sins!Harry, or is this a product of too long between chapters.

Discuss.

From what I remember of your earlier chapters, Harry was more of a cautious person with a somewhat degree of morality and duty. However, I do like a more impulsive, darker Harry. Making more sense being sorted in to Slytherinesqu. Yes, definitely the shoot first kind. Would that change your earlier chapters? If you change your Harry, will you change your Ginny? I like the way she is in the chapters posted....

I wonder whether the Harry you describe might be inclined to view Ginny as his "candle in the darkness" and exert special effort to treat her right and keep her safe even while he's banging people's heads together.

Recall his thoughts about Tonks and Bella, of whom he seems to be fond, and consider that they have not been pitched into the deep end without warning like Ginny has: they do at least enjoy reasonably full disclosure.

Can we hope that Harry's "saving people thing" is something which tends to persist across most if not all incarnations? (Yes, I know he's sometimes painted as a complete bastard, but I view those as not being Harry Potter, just some stranger using Auctorial Polyjuice.)

I don't think I need to change anything in previous chapters, because I'm showing him with the restraints coming off, rather like a river overflowing its banks. Ginny is changing too; away fom the Miss Perfect/Untouchable to someone with more obvious flaws.

That's the key really; how you you show him shedding the rubbish that's been piled on him by others and still keep him Harry?

I've been working through suggestions made by a young Sheila of my acquaintance and we've been delving deeper into the minds of Harry and Ginny.

There is a contrast between the two of them before they properly meet and their 'awakened' selves as they appear in subsequent chapters. The biggest contrast is with Ginny; she is really quite acquiescent but once her well constructed life begins to crumble anger appears as well as denial.

I'm hoping as we begin to delve into her mind that the contrast between the two is believable.

I've already written that devoid of outside control Harry struggles to control his power. He also still has a lot of growing up to do and what we are presented with is, in some ways, a child with the ability to cause a great deal of harm. This is in sharp contrast with JKR's Harry who is mature beyond his years. It makes you wonder where the happy medium is?

I think the key is the chapter next but one when things really hit the fan, I'm just hoping that what I've written is believable.

I like your work and trust you . . . but this sounds like a whole lot of really bad melodrama angst filled drivel that festers in so many places. I'll naturally give it a go, but my hackles are twitching.

Looking forward to the next chapter . . .

I sincerely hope its not melodrama, if not for the fact that one of the areas that I've been working on is the character development. I am worried that people have signed up for Mr Darcy et al and are going to get something very different.

BTW, its nice to hear some one say they trust me. Now, look into my eyes......

Chapter four is now in early beta and I'll find out what others think of my efforts. I certainly don't intend to spend the whole fic dealing with the internal workings of the lead characters minds, so this is the last chapter where this is the focus. Its also currently standing at over 10,000 words so perhaps that's fitting.

Chapter five is under way, the only disappointing thing is that most of what I wrote for this stage of the narrative a year or so ago is unusable. Still, its fun writing the new stuff and I'm sure I'll find a way to use the material in some other form.

The bad thing is that Harry's character, the protagonist, is so different from canon that I can perfectly understand why you got bad reviews .... He is not the hero, not the boy with abusive relatives (he suffered other kinds of abuse, that made him different)and that wants to make friends. He is not the over protective noble guy, over burdened by guilty, and neither is he that boy that awakes women's maternal feelings. Therefore,it's perfectly understandable that people that love canon Harry will not necessarily love your Harry.

This is a quote from a reviewer on my fic journal.

Yes, this Harry is not the loveable guy from canon, he's actually, on the surface a pretty nasty guy, but why does he act the way he does?

Firstly, he does so because he's immature. Dumbledore is right, Harry does need to mix with his peers and learn the art of social intercourse, but to dump him in amongst the students is clearly wrong. He is very powerful and very childish. He has no real sense of personal responsibility just a burning hatred of those who raised him. Canon Dumbles clearly expected Harry to die and in this respect Sins sticks to canon. One person to die for others? That's fine by Albus, and includes himself, I think too.

Secondly, because everyone still has an agenda when it comes to their interaction with Harry and they get treated the same way in which he would treat Dumbles and co too.

Thirdly, he has discovered that witches are quite nice, the problem is he doesn't really know how to deal with them. Tonks means a lot to him, he's obviously attracted to Ginny, and he has a soft spot for Bella too. This all adds to his confusion and a confused Harry is a dangerous Harry.

Finally, I was asked a question about charcater development. From where I'm sitting, Harry is changing a lot but I appreciate that he does it via inner reflection rather than visible actions. He's still on a mission, ableit one which is spinning out of control, because that is the only way he can see things, and he reverts back to ingrained behaviour when pushed even if he's moving to a nother position.

Hope that gives people some stuff to work on :-)

This explanation of Harry, combined with your reply to Anniep's review of Chapter 4 at PS, goes a long way to answering the questions that I previously posed to you. It can take me a long time to get there, and sometimes I need somebody to hold my hand and lead me down the path, but I usually get there. I really do look forward to seeing where H&G go from here.

I was discussing Sins with my wife and bemoaning how difficult some people found it to pick up the changes in Harry through his soliloquies.

Her answer was simple: your life is one long internal dialogue; most other people's aren't, that's why they struggle.

I have a question. When it says,

"Cyriac knew that only Potter’s reluctance to expose his own duplicity in the affair had kept the news of the Weasley family from entering the public domain. That and the contents of the now virtually empty family vault. But now he knew that honour must be satisfied to prevent his shame being broadcast up and down the land,"

whose vault is nearly empty? Since Cyriac is thinking about Potter's motivations, is he thinking about Potter's vault?

In my reading of that the implication is that Cyriac used the bulk of the Weasley family wealth on bribes to keep the family's name clean. So the vault in question is the Weasley family vault.

-SC

Ahh, I see. I was hearing the emphasis in the voice wrong as I read that. Thanks.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read" Groucho Marks

The day I got my first 'hate' review (two stars), I also got an honourable mention in the Best New story category at SIYE.

I must say I'm surprised with the quality of reviews I've received with a lot of people getting the character progression that is happening, for the most part, inside Harry's head.

I post this one, because the reviewer undoubtedly knows what I've done wrong, but, to my dim intelligence at least, appears to have missed the point. I did enjoy the irony of the typos and the historical mistakes.

The writing in this stroy is skillful, however, it is also rather absurdly Victorian, not simply in subject, but in mood and tone. It rather reads like Heart Of Darkness, with GInny being somewhere between herself and a conbination of Elizabeth and Kitty from Pride and Prejudice. Harry reads more as the villian in some Victorian version of a cheap romance. Your ability to write in a manner not native to yourself is, in fact highly commendable, but the scorn and obsequiousness of your characters rather takes a good bit away. You have neglected a key element of fantasy writing, as well as novels of conflict, and that is the hero.
Even if the hero is imperfect, there needs to always be a hero in these two genres. Harry does not fit the bill. GInny might, if she weren\'t so obnoxiously on again off again in a rather schizophrenic manner. Your idioms and similies are colorful, but are the basis for the novel reading as if it were Heart of Darkness or The Good Soldier. I feel as if this is destined to be a Bronte-esque tragedy. Your skill at writing certainly deserves a read, but the warping of so many characters into those that are so AU, until the point where a hero is completely lacking, is what makes me feel this story has but a peg leg to stand on. In Pride and Prejudice, certainly the best Victorian work i\'ve ever read, Elizabeth had such wit, such ability to, without leaving the culture of her society, combat many of that society\'s flaws and weaknesses, that she was instantly a heroine, despite having many flaws of her own.
Ginny doesn\'t feel that way. She has so many of those flaws of that culture, yet she is unremarkable in this story, a Mary Sue in some ways, in others desperately wanting in strength and strength of character. And she is viewed only from Harry\'s rather male dominated masculine point of view, which is horridly offensive in its manner, and ought never to be used by someone a potential hero on Ginny. It is rather like Darcy, except that while Darcy\'s fault is he is not much a better of the men of his time, Harry does not have the excuse of belonging to a Victorian England to fall back on. Pure bloods may be caught in the past, but they choose to be, rahter than that being a product of their environment, making Harry\'s disgusting piggishness all the more repugnant.
The long and short of it is, I really respect your writing ability, but I think at this point in the story there is a disconnect between the setting, tone, characters and genre. I will keep reading however, and your writing is remarkable in that you were able to write in that Victorian tone despite not being a part of that world.

I always thought the reason George III went insane was because someone read Bronte to him. I remember having that forced down my throat at school, then at university.

Do we get to see your reply?

What I find so funny about this review is that Austen's works were not Victorian, they were Regency or Georgian. Yet the reviewer insists that everything is "Victorian." I suspect they either know very little of literature or very little history, but probably both.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read" Groucho Marks

1813 is the date I have for P&P. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps Dickens wrote it? :p

Only when I learn to be polite. Actually, I told them that I'd decided before posting at SIYE I would get some reviews I'd find hard to swallow but once I got to three I'd consider whether I'd continue or not. If the delete button also had an 'undo' then I would have taken the story down this afternoon. I think I might submit a fake chapter in which Harry wakes up from a bad dream and everthing is hunky dory.

To which I would respond that the hero is not always obvious a mere four to five chapters in. Maybe he or she has never read 'The Catcher in the Rye?'

Lizzy did NOT combat the flaws in her culture. She was highly embarrassed by her mother and sisters, and strove to be worthy of the highest echelons of her society - not pave a brave new way out of it. She was very aware of her own lowered place in that society, and the only person she stood up to was Darcy's Aunt because to not do so would have been to allow herself to be treated as a doormat.

And again, a characters strengths are not always obvious so early on in a story. Elizabeth Bennet's moment of triumph occurred near the END of P&P.

After decrying the "Victorian" overtones they then reveal their own thoroughly modern view point on men and women. Now wait a moment, since when was male possessiveness a thing of the past? And what exactly makes it disgusting and repugnant? The fact that they're not married? Or should partners and spouses never feel somewhat possessive of their "other half"? And finally exactly when did Darcy behave this way? His only rude treatment of Elizabeth was when he refused to dance with her. And we don't forgive him because of his "Victorian" time. It was rude then and it would be rude today.

Because they are such an expert on life and culture during the Victorian Era (having read some Austen and Bronte - both Regency era writers) and all. In fact, their entire argument seems to me to be saying that you are writing in a style they find compelling, but they just don't personally like. Fine I'd say, don't read it.

Please don't quit because of this review.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read" Groucho Marks

This is the response I wish I had in me because its far better than the knee-jerk one I had running through my head. My biggest problem is that a big part of me is asking why did I bother with such an extreme Au fic where even my PS beta only reads it because its mine?

I think I'll spend the afternoon in post electricity Britain where magic has returned but even those who cam wield it don't really know how it works .

Thnaks for taking the time and effort to respond to the post.

R

I still find it hard to believe that someone complains that a Potter story has an 'old world' feel to it. This is, after all, a world where the executive, legislative and the judiciary are combined in a format which fell out of general use in the U.K. back in 1082. Which brings to me to another point regarding fan fiction. Why do we see so many lawyers when we never see any in the trials that we see in the books.

Stirling's "Change" novels? Or another fanfic?

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read" Groucho Marks

Stirling's 'Change' novels? Haven't heard of them, I was talking about an 'original' story idea I'm working on. Perhaps not so original, eh?

SM Stirling has written a series of sci-fi novels about a near futture world where a "change" occurred that changed the laws of physics, essentially making electricity no longer work, nor fundamental gas laws. Therefore even pre-electric technologies like the stream engines no longer work. Civilization turns into a medieval like world, with the winners being people who had been in the SCA, and those who were Wiccan. I got fed up with it only 1/3 of the way through book two, because his main female character was a complete Mary Sue. Unnaturally lucky, always said the right thing (according to the other characters), everyone loved her, things always worked if she thought of them, etc, etc, etc. It got on my nerves.
But book two starts in England, with frequent mention of Wiccan magic, so I though you might be referring to that. It's not the same as HP magic.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read" Groucho Marks

In mine, everything pre-electic will still work, magic exists and works but no one knows why or how to start with. The shoot forward 50 years and see what we've got.

I've now finished the story arc for the next chapter. The next step is to piece together the scattered (on 3 machines) scenes in put them in order. There are bit that don't fit, that contradict other scenes, but the progression is there. The biggest struggle has been finding Harry's voice again, where it's gone to I have no idea but I hope it returns otherwise the chapter will bomb.

Perhaps I need to watch some P&P get back in the swing of it, or some other Victorian literature :p