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MoO 2 plot guessing
Posted on: Sat, 09/05/2009 - 05:08
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MoO 2 plot guessing
So, I actually thought up this little guess as to the direction of MoO 2's plot as soon as I read that Harry had been petrified, and have been meaning to post it here, before I read whatever further chapters that end up explaining how things work out.
So, assuming that the story will follow canon to the point that someone will be abducted and brought down to the chamber, I have to think MoO2 is getting close to that point in the story. And it's my guess that it will again be Ginny that is captured. Harry would, of course, be aware of this event even in his petrified state, and I believe their bond will manifest itself in some way that awakens him/his body.
Perhaps Tom will force Ginny's consciousness into submission, but rather than submission it will simply retreat to Harry's body and between the two of them be able to overpower the petrification magic. Or maybe Ginny's consciousness will be forced into submission; in that case, I cannot see mere magic / medical conditions preventing Harry from going to her. Their bond has been shown to transcend normal magic in unpredictable ways, and I think that when threatened waking themselves from petrification would be possible. And of course, I'm referring to their consciousnesses as being separate entities, when that is not exactly clear itself.
It will be interesting to see, regardless, if Tom Riddle makes an attempt to touch Ginny's mind. Per canon, Lily imbued Harry with protection that lives within his very skin, but is that as deep as the protection runs? If Tom attempts direct mental contact with Harry, and by proxy Ginny, will Lily's sacrifice manifest itself in a mental protection? How baffled would young Tom Riddle be if touching Ginny Weasley's mind burned his little twisted fragment of a soul.
Anyways, wanted to just ponder it a bit in a public way and what anyone else thought. :)
Comments
Well, my wife went on vacation, so I spent some of my free time rereading all of MoO that's been written to date. =c) It was a good way to spend a weekend, at least so far. And I have to say that now, having read all of MoO2 that's up, without having to wait for the next update, the story flows really well. i think for a while it felt jerky because of the length of time between updates, so Dave - congratulations on another smooth piece of writing, despite the amount of time this project is taking you. I'm not asking you to speed up...I'm just impressed, because I know my own work would be shoddy and full of holes if I didn't pound it out quickly.
Regarding the Diary...the last time we saw it, it was in Mandy Brocklehurst's hands (chapter 13 - Slights http://www.metafic.com/story/219/13 ), and Mandy was a little shifty about letting people see the Diary. Might she still have it? Was there more to Dobby's motive of "preserving" than just trying to get Harry expelled? I realize that it was the fourth year boys, but still...could Dobby have been trying to give a clue in his own, peculiar way? Personally, I've always wondered just how useful the House Elves could be in the search, or any search, except for the fact that they are ignored as inferior creatures.
Another question is why, on two different occasions, has Alex not heard the Basilisk. Dave is not sloppy enough to have missed it...so what exactly is going on at those times? There aren't a lot of similarities between Colin's attack in chapter 15 - Disclocation, and Harry's attack, except that the attack was on Harry's way when, presumably, he would have been alone. I cannot help that think who ever has the Diary was specifically hunting for Harry. So...who knew about Harry's detention AND the note from Dumbledore?
A third plot question is: Where's Neville? From time to time, we've seen glimpses of him, but, I guess I feel like that Alex hasn't made a great attempt at getting to know him again. Part of me wonders - Does Neville have a role in all of this?
And lastly, and totally unrelated to the Diary - What will Voldemort remember from his tete-a-tete with Alex at the end of MoO1? What did he see when he saw inside Harry's head? Does Snape run around, trying Legilimancy as well? What does he see? Can they understand? And while Alex's connection, ideally, gave a polarity against Voldemort...is Voldemort still attracted to Harry (using Dave's Magnetic balls...)?
Well, back to the grind stone...
What will Voldemort remember from his tete-a-tete with Alex at the end of MoO1?
I've always operated under the presumption that the Diary horcrux, given its sentience and lack of evidence otherwise, operated as an individual unconnected to Voldemort himself. The only bit of evidence I can think of that supports some theory of shared knowledge is a fragment of a line that sticks in my head (ouch) but I'm not even sure if it's from canon or some fanfiction - they all blur together. I remember at some point, in some book or story, Voldemort recalls that Ginny is the girl from the Diary; but I always presumed that was simply Lucius informing his master of events that have come to pass. And now that I've written it here, I'm really thinking it was from fanfiction and not canon, but who knows.
Obviously the Horcruxes are what bind Voldemort's current (in the timeline) spirit form to the world, but I've never been under the impression that there was any level of communication between the Horcruxes and the wraith that currently is Voldemort, nor his resurrected self later on. Thus, I would think that the Diary's Tom Riddle will be completely oblivious to Alex; and, perhaps most importantly, that any knowledge about Alex that Tom Riddle manages to garner would be lost when / if the Diary is destroyed.
Regarding the Diary...the last time we saw it, it was in Mandy Brocklehurst's hands (chapter 13 - Slights http://www.metafic.com/story/219/13 ), and Mandy was a little shifty about letting people see the Diary. Might she still have it?
I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice that Mandy Brocklehurst had the diary last we saw it. I was beginning to think I was the only one, based on some of the speculation I've seen. Also, since the first attack was the same evening it seems likely it was still in her possession.
And while Alex's connection, ideally, gave a polarity against Voldemort...is Voldemort still attracted to Harry (using Dave's Magnetic balls...)?
Well my reading of that is that Harry by himself had an opposite polarity of attributes to Voldemort, meaning Voldemort would be attracted to Harry. Ginny also had an opposite polarity of attributes to Harry, causing Alex to be neutral to Voldemort. Theoretically, with Harry out of the picture, Ginny on her own would therefore be repulsive to Voldemort, having a similar polarity of attributes.
Based on this, my prediction is that Ginny will go down into the chamber to save the diary holder (Mandy?) and will be able to drive Voldemort away for that reason. :-)
Of course another possibility is that I have completely misunderstood the prologue... ;-)
- SC
I've always operated under the presumption that the Diary horcrux, given its sentience and lack of evidence otherwise, operated as an individual unconnected to Voldemort himself.
I actually agree...for the most part. I will get to that in a second. I was doing more forward thinking...like...what would be the outcome be in MoO4, in the graveyard (assuming that Dave follows Canon for that long...at some point, these little changes will start to add up and derail us from Canon). I totally understand your confusion, but that truly wasn't my point. Sorry!
The only bit of evidence I can think of that supports some theory of shared knowledge is a fragment of a line that sticks in my head (ouch) but I'm not even sure if it's from canon or some fanfiction - they all blur together. I remember at some point, in some book or story, Voldemort recalls that Ginny is the girl from the Diary; but I always presumed that was simply Lucius informing his master of events that have come to pass. And now that I've written it here, I'm really thinking it was from fanfiction and not canon, but who knows.
I've heard that too, but like you, I've read too much fiction to really remember where...and I also made the same conclusion. But I also wondered how much one "horcrux" or "divided spirit" could sense another in proximity. My guess is that they cannot, because there is no real reaction to Harry being IN the Diary - which would be about as direct contact two horcrux's could have.
As well, I wonder if each horcrux had a different power level than the others, and what effect that would have. For instance, presumably Tom couldn't choose how much to divide his spirit - into equal parts from the get go. So, each part is half of what's left. This would make the Diary exactly half of Tom's spirit, where as Harry would have received 1/128th (1/(2^7)). What would that difference lead to.
Obviously the Horcruxes are what bind Voldemort's current (in the timeline) spirit form to the world, but I've never been under the impression that there was any level of communication between the Horcruxes and the wraith that currently is Voldemort, nor his resurrected self later on. Thus, I would think that the Diary's Tom Riddle will be completely oblivious to Alex; and, perhaps most importantly, that any knowledge about Alex that Tom Riddle manages to garner would be lost when / if the Diary is destroyed.
Yet at the same time, information must be able to passed between them at some level, or else Harry wouldn't be able to see into Voldemort's head - as well as Nagini's - and Voldemort couldn't give Harry visions. Though you could be right about what happens once it was destroyed. However, there is no guarantee that Voldemort didn't witness some of the events through either the Diary's victum/self-created Body and/or through Harry's eyes.
And while Alex's connection, ideally, gave a polarity against Voldemort...is Voldemort still attracted to Harry (using Dave's Magnetic balls...)?
Well my reading of that is that Harry by himself had an opposite polarity of attributes to Voldemort, meaning Voldemort would be attracted to Harry. Ginny also had an opposite polarity of attributes to Harry, causing Alex to be neutral to Voldemort. Theoretically, with Harry out of the picture, Ginny on her own would therefore be repulsive to Voldemort, having a similar polarity of attributes.
So, because I'm a dork, I made a table of what I hypothetically understood from the prologue...
Alex's "stats" aren't given in the prologue, but here's my rationale (remember what the Twins' tell Bill: "But together they are something more"):
Power: Harry's as powerful as Tom (given that Ginny's AMP was 8 without Harry, as is Tom's, and both together are magnitudes more powerful)
Presence: Everyone knew where Ginny was because of her youthful energy. They still really cannot hide now that they want to.
Perception: Ginny by herself is able to give insightful advice to those older than her on her own, and yet together they cannot perceive why so many people have problems with them.
Purpose: While they aren't dictated (yet) with the knowledge of the prophecy, they certainly strive without ceasing for any cause they deem worthy. I was tempted to add another plus on this one ^_^.
I bring this up for a couple of reasons. One: Alex and Tom STILL have one piece left of "Attraction" - there purpose. I was curious that Dave said that Tom's aspect didn't have purpose, but maybe his idea and my idea of what purpose is are different. Back to the prologue - Dave specifically stated that the attraction would be muted, not nullified.
Based on this, my prediction is that Ginny will go down into the chamber to save the diary holder (Mandy?) and will be able to drive Voldemort away for that reason. :-)
Well, here's the thing: What did Ginny lose when Harry got petrified? She certainly hasn't lost the power. So would she still be "incompatible" with Tom (prologue's word for their "interaction" as aspects)? Granted, Tom and Harry weren't incomplete because either lacked power. But, I wonder if Ginny loses anything in their "aspect" when they are divided like this...especially as Harry, to communicate, must splice together things he said to Ginny from what Ginny herself remembers (Rather than Harry just being slow to speak while petrified). Sighs. So many possibilities. Will Ginny go back to having no purpose? If she does (in her listlessness), then she and Tom would be identical (Assuming, of course, that my assumptions above are anywhere near correct). Would they then be repulsed, and Ginny not go down at all, because she's not attracted to the Diary?
Of course another possibility is that I have completely misunderstood the prologue... ;-)
That was my feeling exactly as I started making the table: Did I assign each line to the wrong aspect? Amazing that Dave's prologue makes just about all of us feel that way....
=c) So many possibilities...it's just like being in Delirium's realm...
I actually believe Percy has the diary at this point (when Mandy had the diary Ginny commented that even Mandy was bored with it)
If you look at the last few interactions between Percy and Penelopy you get the impression that Percy has not been acting gentelmenly with her. I interprete this to be Tom and the diary's influence on Percy, having him have his hands do a bit of roaming (which Penelopy rebukes him for), even getting so bad that she latches on to Sir Nick after really getting mad at Percy for his advances) Percy goes storming off and the next thing you know the basilisk has gotten to Penelopy and Nick.
As to where this is going, I think it might be that Ginny (with help from Harry in her head) has to go on down into the chamber to rescue Percy but could be way off as the twists and turns in this gem usually surpise me.
I suppose that maybe with regards to MoO, and Alex specifically, the point may well be arguing semantics, but for me things just won't be the same unless it's Harry that goes down to the Chamber. Same as it wouldn't be the same unless it's Harry that Voldemort uses to resurrect himself, or Harry's godfather that is in danger and leads to the fight at the Department of Mysteries, and perhaps most importantly that it is Harry that eventually has to deal with Snape. It just wouldn't be the same, to me, if the vision of Arthur being attacked turned out to be the ruse, and Arthur was lost as a result; her character (Ginny) simply doesn't have the... loneliness... that gives these things such impact. Not that any of these things are even necessarily in Dave's plot outline, but the point stands.
I realize, given the nature of Alex and MoO in general, that Ginny is Harry and vice versa, and speaking about them in separate terms may be doing an injustice to Alex, but so far they have maintained disparate personalities in their internal conversations. Harry is still Harry and he, while Ginny is still Ginny and she, as Luna put it. I think something would be lost were that final thin line of individuality be erased between them permanently, and as much as I believe they can be thought of as a single one, and as impressive as the mental image of Ginny, wielding the sword of Gryffindor to rescue her brother (or anyone else) from Slytherin's monster would be, I don't know how it would measure up. The mental image of a solitary twelve year old facing a thousand year old monster and a sixteen year old monster, to save the life of an eleven year old girl he barely even knows, all by himself, and then accepting his own death as a consequence is pretty powerful.
MoO isn't the first story I read were Harry was petrified. I've read two others where that happened. However, the authors treated the situation differently. In one, Harry was able to petrify himself after a few months. The other story was a Harry/Hermione soul bond story I'm a beta for and Hermione got petrified and it effected Harry through the bond so he got petrified as well even though he was no where near Hermione at the time. In that story, both Harry and Hermione had to wait for the mandrakes to mature and it was Harry and Hermione's friends that fought and killed the basilisk. I must say that it is rather depressing to have Harry petrified (especially when you have characters dwell on it). I also find it very creepy that two authors (both I have had some kind of correspondence with), at almost the same time, have Harry be petrified in their story when in one of my stories I've put on hold, I was planning for the same thing to happen (that's one of the reasons why I put it on hold). What gives???
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.
Yet at the same time, information must be able to passed between them at some level, or else Harry wouldn't be able to see into Voldemort's head - as well as Nagini's - and Voldemort couldn't give Harry visions. Though you could be right about what happens once it was destroyed. However, there is no guarantee that Voldemort didn't witness some of the events through either the Diary's victum/self-created Body and/or through Harry's eyes.
In HBP, Harry asked Dumbledore if Voldemort could sense when a horcrux was destroyed. The answere was "I don't think so." The reasoning was that even the disembodied spirit of Voldemort would sense it, and then when he had a body, he would have moved them as soon as possible to prevent the destruction of any more. And if he needed to have a body to sense it, then he would have at least sensed when the ring was destroyed, and THEN moved the remaining ones. If Voldemort could sense the presence of one of his horcuxes, then he would have known that Harry was one, and likely not killed him. I think the only reason the mental connection existed between Harry and Voldemort was because Harry was a horcrux with a mind of his own. He was a living being. The diary was not. So there was no mental connection between them.
I actually believe Percy has the diary at this point (when Mandy had the diary Ginny commented that even Mandy was bored with it)
If you look at the last few interactions between Percy and Penelopy you get the impression that Percy has not been acting gentelmenly with her. I interprete this to be Tom and the diary's influence on Percy, having him have his hands do a bit of roaming (which Penelopy rebukes him for), even getting so bad that she latches on to Sir Nick after really getting mad at Percy for his advances) Percy goes storming off and the next thing you know the basilisk has gotten to Penelopy and Nick.
I had thought the same thing. It did seem suspicious that Penelope is petrified right after storming away from Percy. I now, after some time to think about it, think that was just a JKR level red herring. Remember when Percy first learned about Harry and Ginny sharing a bed? Ginny said she almost thought Percy seemed jealous. Percy is not one to come to exceptionally logical conclusions. He would conveniently forget, or not notice, the fact that Harry and Ginny are too young to be even thinking about the kinds of things that he is, and is likely letting that jealousy get the better of him, and pushes things too far. I think that we, the readers, are meant to think he is the one with the diary, when he was just trying to keep up with something that his sister isn't even doing. Naturally, Penelope wasn't having any of that, and got angry.
I think the only reason the mental connection existed between Harry and Voldemort was because Harry was a horcrux with a mind of his own. He was a living being. The diary was not. So there was no mental connection between them.
And even then, the mental connection was something that wasn't there all the time. It was only during periods of strong emotion were they able to see into each other's mind. What gets me is that it is implied Voldemort knew of this connection but never once questioned how such a thing was possible...
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.
What gets me is that it is implied Voldemort knew of this connection but never once questioned how such a thing was possible...
Did he know about it before the resurrection ceremony at the end of GoF?
He might quite plausibly have assumed that it was an artefact of using Harry's blood in that ceremony. We do know he was an arrogant git, after all, and he might well not have considered the possibility of any other reason—or not wanted to consider any other.
Not to mention, just because we don't see him question it doesn't mean he didn't in private: he wouldn't have wanted to appear indecisive or ignorant in public.
jediprankster posted on: Fri, 09/11/2009 - 08:43
If Voldemort could sense the presence of one of his horcuxes, then he would have known that Harry was one, and likely not killed him. I think the only reason the mental connection existed between Harry and Voldemort was because Harry was a horcrux with a mind of his own. He was a living being. The diary was not. So there was no mental connection between them.
I agree with jediprankster.
It is my supposition (hint for The Lost Tower) that the really, really bad thing about a Horcrux is what it does to the person's soul. Yeah, yeah you have to murder and then deliberately split the soul to make one, yada yada... Jo confuses things by having Slughorn talk about "killing" and then "murder," mixing the two terms. They are not the same thing. The terms are used interchangably but if magic is based on intent then the intent is not interchangable. (Imagine a singsong voice whispering "off topic, Chatman...")
Ahem. The Dark Wizard deliberately takes a life for use in the Dark ritual, which is really bad. When encased in a Horcrux that soul fragment is separated in both space and time from its whole (i.e. the donor soul and corporeal body). There is where the "really, really bad" comes in. By the very nature of existance a soul should not be partitioned and the separated pieces want to rejoin the whole. What is left of the whole can no longer sense the encased piece and an encased piece cannot sense another encased piece. Although, judging by what little is explained to Harry, there is no study into multiple Horcruxes. Separated in time and space from the whole the piece is no longer in the same plane of existance. However, the piece CAN sense the whole, the donor, but it cannot rejoin because of the magical imprisonment.. In a grossly simplifed example - imgine the homesick despair of a kidnapped and imprisioned child. Something like that.
So... Harry's scar reacted to Quirrellmort, but not to any of the Horcruxes, none of those caused him pain. Why? The pain is an effect of the soul piece's longing for reunion. But only reunion with the whole, not with another separated piece. In my opinion this is why animate objects are bad Horcruxes. A soul piece imprisioned in a book wants to rejoin the whole as much as a piece imprisioned in a person. But the book can not feel pain. As a Horcrux, Nagini was probably in as much pain as Harry, but hey, it's only a snake. Harry can enter the diary and feel no pain because the soul piece in him does not exist as far as the soul piece in the book is concerned, and vice versa.
The link between Harry and Voldemort is a result of the piece's longing for reunion. Voldemort doesn't realize this. His possession of Nagini is separate from the Horcrux, but through the soul reunion link Harry shares in that possession. Voldemort is unaware of Harry's presence because he is unaware of the link. He is only alerted to it in OotP after Harry has a strong emotional reaction during the vision starting on page 584 of the Scholastic hardcopy edition. Even then no one, not even Dumbledore, thinks beyond "well its something they share because of the Prophecy." Since the mechanics of the soul reunion link isn't important to the Harry/Voldemort story arc Jo never explores the why of the link beyond the fact it exists.
Well, crap... I've just made a short story long! And this post has nothing to do with guesses about MoO2. However, this is my theory for the link between Harry and Voldemort, how it works, and why I think jediprankster is on the right track.
jediprankster posted on: Fri, 09/11/2009 - 08:43
If Voldemort could sense the presence of one of his horcuxes, then he would have known that Harry was one, and likely not killed him. I think the only reason the mental connection existed between Harry and Voldemort was because Harry was a horcrux with a mind of his own. He was a living being. The diary was not. So there was no mental connection between them.
I agree with jediprankster.
It is my supposition (hint for The Lost Tower) that the really, really bad thing about a Horcrux is what it does to the person's soul. Yeah, yeah you have to murder and then deliberately split the soul to make one, yada yada... Jo confuses things by having Slughorn talk about "killing" and then "murder," mixing the two terms. They are not the same thing. The terms are used interchangably but if magic is based on intent then the intent is not interchangable. (Imagine a singsong voice whispering "off topic, Chatman...")
Ahem. The Dark Wizard deliberately takes a life for use in the Dark ritual, which is really bad. When encased in a Horcrux that soul fragment is separated in both space and time from its whole (i.e. the donor soul and corporeal body). There is where the "really, really bad" comes in. By the very nature of existance a soul should not be partitioned and the separated pieces want to rejoin the whole. What is left of the whole can no longer sense the encased piece and an encased piece cannot sense another encased piece. Although, judging by what little is explained to Harry, there is no study into multiple Horcruxes. Separated in time and space from the whole the piece is no longer in the same plane of existance. However, the piece CAN sense the whole, the donor, but it cannot rejoin because of the magical imprisonment.. In a grossly simplifed example - imgine the homesick despair of a kidnapped and imprisioned child. Something like that.
So... Harry's scar reacted to Quirrellmort, but not to any of the Horcruxes, none of those caused him pain. Why? The pain is an effect of the soul piece's longing for reunion. But only reunion with the whole, not with another separated piece. In my opinion this is why animate objects are bad Horcruxes. A soul piece imprisioned in a book wants to rejoin the whole as much as a piece imprisioned in a person. But the book can not feel pain. As a Horcrux, Nagini was probably in as much pain as Harry, but hey, it's only a snake. Harry can enter the diary and feel no pain because the soul piece in him does not exist as far as the soul piece in the book is concerned, and vice versa.
The link between Harry and Voldemort is a result of the piece's longing for reunion. Voldemort doesn't realize this. His possession of Nagini is separate from the Horcrux, but through the soul reunion link Harry shares in that possession. Voldemort is unaware of Harry's presence because he is unaware of the link. He is only alerted to it in OotP after Harry has a strong emotional reaction during the vision starting on page 584 of the Scholastic hardcopy edition. Even then no one, not even Dumbledore, thinks beyond "well its something they share because of the Prophecy." Since the mechanics of the soul reunion link isn't important to the Harry/Voldemort story arc Jo never explores the why of the link beyond the fact it exists.
Well, crap... I've just made a short story long! And this post has nothing to do with guesses about MoO2. However, this is my theory for the link between Harry and Voldemort, how it works, and why I think jediprankster is on the right track.
This whole horcrux thing brings up another point. Are there horcruxes in MoO? In other words, is the diary in the story a horcrux like in canon or is it nothing more than a book that has had a bunch of spells placed on it? The whole marbles attracting each other thing in MoO1's prologue makes the whole Harry is a horcrux thing seem unlikely in my opinion. But if Harry isn't a horcrux, than how can Harry and Ginny both speak parseltounge? I like to have some answers.
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.