MetaFic

I think it's fairly clear in canon that Harry is self sacrificing enough that he would have walked into the forest and taken an Avada Kedavra regardless of his relationship with Ginny, thus removing the nearly-last Horcrux and opening up the opportunity for Voldemort's demise.

Now then, without Ginny, would Harry have come back? Would he have chosen to survive the killing curse, or would he have chosen his time and gone on? Personally, while I think Harry would have been sorely tempted, I do not believe Dumbledore would have allowed it. I don't mean that Dumbledore would be able to physically stop Harry from moving on, but I believe an interpretation of the prophecy would be all that is necessary to send Harry back into the fight:

"... and either must die at the hand of the other..."

I believe if Harry stayed down after the curse, the prophecy would be quite resolved - and not in Harry's favor. As such, "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" would be quite dead, leaving lots of other people who do not possess the power to vanquish him. I think if this was pointed out to Harry - and I rather assume Dumbledore would be the one to do it if necessary - that Harry would choose to return and finish the job himself. Because whether or not he has a personal anchor to the world in Ginny, his devotion to his friends and the Weasley family is no less fierce, and I do not think for a second he would risk their fate to chance.

Short answer: Yes.
That was cemented in the HBP chapter where AD get Harry to understand that even without the prophecy Harry would still go after Voldemort because confronting such evil is the right thing to do. Accidental horcrux destroyed? The Dark Tosser (thank you Jeconais!) is still in action. Harry MUST survive Voldemort and Harry never leaves a job uncompleted. Well, except for his Yule Ball date with Padma. :-)

Ginny represents a future beyond Voldemort, a family that he always dreamed of (Mirror of Erised anyone?) and the unconditional love that he never had before. I mean fighting for truth, justice, and a better Ministry is all well and good. But fighting because you know there will be no more impediments to spending a lifetime with the hot babe? Now THAT'S a reason to win and survive!

Which was precisely the point of "Seventeen." But nevermind that.

I agree that Harry would have fought as hard as he could and done whatever was necessary to defeat Tom, even without Ginny. But I have to wonder. Would his 'best effort' have been as good if he didn't have a strong, personal reason to endure everything? His intentions would have been just as good, but would his actions have been as successful? Would he have unconsciously tried just a little bit less hard, because he didn't feel that personal stake? I don't know the answer. On the one hand, it makes some sense. On the other hand, he did have plenty of people to live for without Ginny. The entire series showed us that Harry felt an incredibly deep affection for Hermione and Ron, if nothing else.

Harry would have gone back, regardless of his feelings for Ginny. Dumbledore wouldn't allow him to die for two reasons. One, he did care about Harry (even if at times his choices concerning Harry's life didn't reflect it at times) and would have wanted Harry to go on with his life (I'm sure Dumbledore would probably get other people Harry looked up who died to convince Harry to go back if Harry chose to die). Two, Rita Skeeter wrote that book and if I remember correctly, speculated Dumbledore was using Harry to advance some goal for the "greater good". While there was truth in that, I doubt he would want to be remembered as the person who turned a baby into something for Voldemort to go after in hopes that Voldemort's obsession with trying to do Harry in would open up some opportunity to end the war.

There was one story I read where Harry actually wanted to die when it came time for him to make that choice of to go back or move on. The Dumbledore in that story was very much alive so it was Harry's parents the one who convinced him to go back. Once Harry was back, he made it quite clear that he wanted to die since to him, there wasn't anything for him to live for. It was an odd story. Harry was kicked out of the Dursleys when he was 10 and he lived on his own but using his metaphamagus abilities was able to pretend to be a boy named Mark Twist and when necessary, Mark Twist's father. Nobody figured out who he really was. Harry ended up spending time in Azkaban after Voldemort's return because everyone thought he killed Cedric and Mad-Eye. When Dumbledore learned Harry didn't, Dumbledore told Harry he knew Harry was innocent but there was nothing he could do to keep Harry out of Azkaban. To make matters worse for Harry, Harry's friends, in an attempt to rescue Harry, ended up getting Harry sent to Azkaban with out a trial (Harry was hoping to use the trial to prove his innocence). When Harry was released, he mad at the world and felt he had no reason to live after he sacrificed himself (he learned about the Horcruxes and where they were from hiding in Voldemort's mind to escape the "dementor effect" and deduced he was a horcrux as well).

There was another story I read where Harry wasn't sure if he should go back or not and chose not to. Dumbledore didn't stop him which I found a little out of character (though maybe the Dumbledore in it knew Harry would realize his mistake and find some way to go back). It was odd too because when Harry came back after he chose to die had some adverse effects on Ginny and Harry was trying to "repair" the "damage" he caused.

The two fics referred to are "The Hidden Hero" (which I found at FFNet http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3995826/ ) and "Taking the Train" (which I found at SIYE http://www.siye.co.uk/siye/viewstory.php?sid=127689 )

I have to confess I found both of them difficult to read but ultimately rewarding. Not sure whether I'd want to read them again, mind. Not like certain other stories which I can just read and re-read, but I'd embarrass too many people here if I were to list them.

So what I think we're all saying is that the exclusion of an event of some (at least personal) significance would effect little or no change in the larger story? While I agree that this seems logical given Harry's character and nobility, something about this stance strikes me as problematic. What we're generally saying is that, ultimately, Harry and Ginny's relationship is so irrelevant to the overarching conflict (which is probably true given that in the Hero's Journey motif the hero rarely "gets the girl") that it's even insignificant to Harry's character . . .

That's a very broad claim, and I can't agree with it. I think most of the comments are pointing out a distinction: Harry would have made the tough choice the same, even if not for the same reasons. That doesn't mean the H/G aspect wouldn't have had a (profound) impact on Harry's character in other directions.

If my wife and I never got together, I like to think I'd still be doing The Right Thing. I wouldn't be the same person, but that doesn't mean I'd become someone completely unrecognizable, either.

For my part, I'm undecided. I disagree that Dumbledore would "force" Harry to decide anything. Nor do I think someone else who met him at the decision point would have. But at the same time, if Harry did die, then who would be the Elder Wand's master? Voldemort. There's a lot you can do to someone without using the AK, as was demonstrated repeatedly. Harry's "protective death" wouldn't be worth much to everyone else.

Hi guys! First post on this site for me.

I personally think Ginny had very little to do with Harry's decision to fight, or how hard he fought. She served another very important purpose.

Harry was always a warrior type, even as an eleven year old, and with Ron and Hermione he really had all he needed to be proactive in fighting evil. He had friends and people who cared for him.

Ginny represents his sacrifice, or what he would rather be doing at the time. If it wasn't for what he saw as the necessity of leaving Ginny, he would have been quite content to live in a tent with Ron and Hermione fighting evil. She was something for him to miss, and if he succeeded, to eventually come home to.

As a veteran myself, I certainly am not attempting to demean anyones sacrifice, but there is a poignant difference between a bachelor going to war with his friends at his side and the man who must leave a lover behind to do his duty. At various times in my life, I have fit in to either category.

I think it added great emotional death for Harry to have a desire he must forego to fulfill his destiny, and to be seen longing for that desire throughout the story.

Would Dumbledore force a person to make a choice? Yes. The end of GoF anyone? He got into an argument with Minister Fudge when Fudge made a choice he disagreed with. Its part of the controlling side of his personality.

Also, would Voldemort be the master of the Elder Wand? Maybe. Dumbledore hoped by arranging Snape to kill him that the Elder Wand wouldn't have anymore true masters. So theoretically it could be possible that Harry would have been the wands last true master. But then again, allowing some one to kill you is a type of surrendering which is a defeat. Given that, it may be possible Voldemort would have become the wand's master and that would not be a good thing given what that wand was theoretically capable of doing.

I don't believe that if Harry was really and truly vehemently against the idea of returning to the land of the living that Dumbledore would force Harry to go. Not only do I believe it would be outside of Dumbledore's power, but I still believe Dumbledore to truly be kind at heart.

Do I believe that if Harry was on the fence, or perhaps even leaning towards staying dead but was clearly conflicted or of two minds, that Dumbledore would give Harry subtle or not-so-subtle nudges in the right direction? Yes, indeed.

The difference is, Dumbledore held, and continues to hold hope for a Happy life for Harry. He believes that if Harry returns, that Harry can put Voldemort to rest once and for all and truly begin to live his life as he should. That is why he would push Harry towards returning. If somehow we got to where Harry was in canon - pondering returning to his life or not - but the situation was different; say that Harry was friendless and alone, that the Weasleys had listened to Skeeter and long ago abandoned him, and Hermione had died in second year instead of being petrified, and obviously by this point Remus, Tonks, Dumbledore, Snape, and everyone else who might be an actual friend or who Harry holds a personal connection to in life was already dead to him - I believe in that case, Dumbledore would have simply allowed Harry his peace.

In fact, I believe if that was the case, Harry would never have stopped at the train station. One doesn't stop and ponder returning on the way to the afterlife unless one has things in life to return to.

Therein lies another question. Would Harry have returned only to finish off Voldemort? Personally, I believe that anyone could have killed Voldemort once his horcruxes were destroyed, but that's another debate. Either way, though, would Harry have wanted to take the risk? Knowing what he did at that point, and knowing exactly what the living people didn't know, would he take that chance? I think he would. I think that even if he knew Voldemort were mortal again, and even if he had no one left to go back to, he'd still do it. It would be an incredible self-sacrifice, and I think his life would be unpleasant and extremely difficult after defeating Tom, but I think he'd do it. He's just that kind of guy.

Which brings up an unpleasant question. In the scenario you describe, wherein Harry has no personal connections left in life, and wherein he did go back anyway and succeeded in defeating Voldemort, would he choose to continue living afterwards? Knowing something of what waited for him in the next great adventure, would he choose to embark upon it early? I don't think so, but it's an interesting and complicated question.

Very interesting. Personally, I think it was Harry's want for life that allowed him the option to choose.

I guess I think that let's say Harry did get a moment to choose, but instead of a train station it was simply a door. And on the other side of that door were the few people Harry did care about and that cared about him - Sirius, Remus, his parents, Dumbledore, perhaps more. On one side of a doorway he'll literally have that which he saw in the Mirror; on the other, he'll have a world that doesn't want him where he is lonely, and where currently stands a Dark Lord and all his followers bent upon inflicting pain and death not only to Harry, but to everyone and everything around them. I think it would be beyond uncommonly hard for anyone to not step into the Mirror and head through that door, and I doubt anyone that truly cared for Harry such as Dumbledore and his parents would deny him that comfort. I think that Harry is an incredible guy, and that he might someday regret his decision - particularly if Voldemort did not meet his demise that night because Harry didn't go back; but I think the initial kneejerk reaction of someone deprived of love and caring to that extent to run through that doorway would be unstoppable.

With that said, I also cannot envision a scenario where Harry would willingly want to die, but return to complete his job first. I think if it was me, in a similar type scenario, if I have it in my head that I no longer want to continue living, and I suddenly found myself not living and it was looking like it would be the fulfillment of my own personal dreams and hopes - seeing my long lost friends and family and feeling love for the first time in years - that I would not be able to make myself go back, even for a brief moment to off a Dark Lord.

Read Arm's of a Dark Angel. Harry found himself in a situation similar to that after his struggle over the stone in year one. To make things even more tempting for Harry to choose to die, it was his parents that greeted him on the side of the door he was on and was told if he died, the responsibility of killing Voldemort would fall to someone else (Harry wasn't told who). What convinced Harry to go back was he was allowed to see what was going on in the world of the living while he was in "limbo" and saw people worried about if he would live or not.

I don't think Dumbledore could force Harry to do anything at this point. Unlike other "Dumbledore explains all" sequences in the previous books, Harry is an interrogator in the Kings Cross scene. Where else in the books does Dumbledore say something and Harry responds "Explain." That isn't a question, it is a command. Also Dumbledore is surprised at where Harry has envisioned them. It was Harry's show now, Albus was but a supporting player.

I'm not sure just any ol' Tom, Albus, or Harry would have had a choice to go back or go on. But Harry Potter had unified the Deathly Hallows. He was, at that point, the Master of Death. Death conformed to his will, not the other way around. So Harry had a choice. Jo keeps hammering the importance of choice throughout canon. For Harry the choice was simple. He wanted Voldemort gone. Harry internalized that he was the only one who could do it, even if Voldemort was merely mortal again.

Ginny was not a subject during his interrogation of Dumbledore. She was not a factor in his desire to return to finish Tom. However, before Harry was struck down, what were his last two thoughts?
Last thought - Hurry and do it before my brave facade collapses. He was afraid of showing fear, not of dying.
Second to last thought - The feel of Ginny's lips on his.

Ginny was not important to the outcome of the canon plot, but she was of vital importance to the canon protagonist.

I don't think i have heard a better explanation

I've never felt that Harry's survival of Voldemort's final killing curse had anything to do with the idea of the Master of Death. I think that the Deathly Hallows were quite the legend, and like many legends were partially based in fact and partially in exaggeration. The Wand could not prevent defeat, otherwise it could never be taken and pass ownership. The Cloak could be seen through. The Stone doesn't actually resurrect anyone. They all do what they said, but not exactly what they said, and even put together I don't think they make anyone the Master of anything.

I think Harry survived the last curse because he WAS the master of the Elder wand - and we do know that it hadn't been working properly for Voldemort up until that point - and because while Harry survived the curse, something didn't; if the result of the Killing Curse is death, which I shall define as the soul leaving the body, then the curse didn't fail entirely because it certainly killed the bit of Tom inside Harry.

Not to mention Harry had tossed the Stone away prior to taking the Curse, and was certainly not in physical possession of the Wand.

I think that if Harry was the Master of Death, it is because he made himself that way much in the same way you could call Lily the Master of Death. Lily, through her willing sacrifice, denied Death by willingly succumbing to it herself. Harry achieved the same thing, in the same way, and in both cases there was still a cost: Lily died, and Voldemort was incorporeal for years despite his preparation; Harry was (momentarily, at least) dead, and the bit of Tom in him was destroyed.

This, I completely agree with.

The type of AU stories that have spawned this discussion I think fit into a certian category.

For example - I just wrote one. A reviewer asked me very early on how - if Harry and Ginny hadn't gotten togetehr in his sixth year - how it affected the outcomes of the Battle of Hogwarts.

I had nothing.

I hadn't given it any thought.

There is a certina element in some of these stories where you want to tell a story, using characters that people aready know and love. you want to tell just the story without creating the backgorund, the characters, their fears and hopes and dreams.

If you take Harry and his relationship to Ron and Hermione and his place in the Weasley family and you take Ginny with her harpies career and her older brothers and her tough exterior and you then create a situation for them it's not about tying it to all the other strings of the plot.

These types of AU stories are exercises in cahracter developemtn and are character driven not plot driven and not commenting on intricacies of the plot.

As a general rule I have noticed that men are more likely to write or read stories that explore the plot threads of the HP series. to see what changing the plot does and to see the cause and effect and other elements as they react on the plot.

Female writers and readers are in general more attajhced to the characters and how they think or feel and react to things. They read the fics becasue they know harry, they know Ginny and you don't have to spend time getting to know them, you can see what thier characters would do if you plopped them down in another situation. It matters very little if that situation could occur in the canon timeline.

It didn't matter what the outcome of the Battle of Hogwarts was or how Harry came out of it without Ginny in his mind. You simply start at the point where he did have victory over Voldemort. There is little need to answer that question you simply accept that as fact much like we accept the fact that Ron has Scabbers for a pet. how did he get there? Who knows? It is less important than the type of person Ron is and ultimately the type of person Scabbers is.

If you want to think about it, you can rationalise it away with he felt an attachemnt to Ron or there was maybe some oter girl, or he thought of Molly and go down the maternal love route. But ultimately when you write the story you are borrowing the characters and keeping them in their setting not exploring the plot arcs that got you there. It avoids the exposition necessary to create characters of your own and explores the ones you already know.

I think it's just a difference between character driven stories and plot driven ones.

I'm a character person myself, despite being born male. Characters make the story for me. HP fanfiction has been *great* for character development, simply because JKR left so many avenues unexplored or very lightly explored, and yet laid a framework upon which great characters can be built. I'm, typically, far less interested in the plot than the characters' reaction to whatever is occurring in the plot.

With me, its characters and plot. They're both important for a good story. Both have to be believable. Believable as in that the characters have personalities that could exist in the real world and the plot has to be something that progresses in a logical way.

Which part about magical people on broomsticks has to be believable?

about fanfiction is that you do get some really good character studies and that is what draws me in